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doctorgori
02-29-2008, 07:31 PM
I fully realize there are some "holes" & "hurdles" with this suggestion, but IMO the good outweighs the complex...

I would like to see a minimum implied "terms of service" for sellers shipping fish...
I fully realize that there are more than one way to skin a cat, but not so with shipping fish

could there be a "automatic" header or auto-popup or something that a seller agrees to before placing a auction that reads:

"the seller agrees by posting this auction to comply with the following minimum standard practices for shipping fish"
...you can add whatever is appropriate, and naturally the thing would need suggestions, et...but I was thinking of a few:

1) Fish will be double bagged
2) catfish, et (fish with spines) will be bagged with a min of 4mil aggregate polybags
3) bags will contain enough air for transport
4) boxes will contain at least minimal insulation

...or add subtract whatever, but you get the jest...I think this would only help as opposed to complicate things

lotsoffish
02-29-2008, 07:42 PM
What if I want to ship in Gatorade bottles?

beth
02-29-2008, 09:18 PM
I often use breather bags, single layer, no air.

A few weeks ago I was interested in some fish from a seller with no fish selling/shipping feedback, Adam/Adogger. Before bidding I emailed and simply asked. Explained I always ask when there is little or no shipping history. He was very understanding, my concerns were removed and he sent me one of the better packed boxes (of great fish BTW) that I have gotten in a long time. Problems I have seen are too many fish per bag (hard to give a guideline for), fish which are not fasted properly (or at all) and heatpacks against the bags of fish.

Minimum standards for shipping would be nice but technique counts for so much and is hard to define.

A conspicuous link to the AquaBid help section on "How to Ship Live Fish" may be more effective. The first link in the section seems to be currently dead.

diburning
02-29-2008, 11:15 PM
Everyone has their own techniques and methods. I don't think that forcing people to a standard is a good idea.

doctorgori
03-01-2008, 01:40 AM
Everyone has their own techniques and methods. I don't think that forcing people to a standard is a good idea.
Yeah I thought about that, but then again a written "standard" would ensure a certain level of customer service and/or at least mitigate risk (on both ends)...and of course, w/o even realizing it a "defacto standard" already exist, for if it did not, how could we complain about someones poor shipping methods? (we would have not basis against a "comparator") ...IMO, putting a "standard" in writting provides a element of culpbabilty, reduction of excuses and "education"

proof of a "defacto" standard: here is a complaint example:

I recieved fish from "<fill-in-name> and the catfish were single bagged, bags leaked, and were shipped in a box w/o any insulation or paper...blah blah...

Well, if such a complaint were posted in the feedback section, the "consensus opinion" would be this was a callous seller or moron...Why? because, the majority of the msg board readers already have a "defacto" standard in thier minds as a "base minimum" for comparison (i.e. double bagged, insulated boxes, et)...we would be all over the perpetrator (we've all seen it before)...problem is, that form of "enforcement" is a negative after the fact, but not a "educational" based deterrent

I agree, we all have our individua methods, and many work, but not all all equal...besides, whos' forcing? the occasional social "deviants" like Lottsofish :devil: who feel thier own peculiar methods work, should have no fear if the fish arrive alive...

marli
03-01-2008, 07:20 AM
besides, whos' forcing?
Well, you would be, if this is in place:


could there be a "automatic" header or auto-popup or something that a seller agrees to before placing a auction that reads:

"the seller agrees by posting this auction to comply with the following minimum standard practices for shipping fish"
...you can add whatever is appropriate, and naturally the thing would need suggestions, et...but I was thinking of a few:

1) Fish will be double bagged
2) catfish, et (fish with spines) will be bagged with a min of 4mil aggregate polybags
3) bags will contain enough air for transport
4) boxes will contain at least minimal insulation
That 'pop-up' states that the auction poster HAS to comply to these standards. And if for some reason Petes' fish-in-a-Gatorade-bottle trick doesn't work and the fish are dead, then what? I'm 99% sure he'd replace the fish anyway, but now you have Mark and AquaBid involved too (liability sucks). Or as Beth said, what about Breather Bags? No air in those, so rule 3 would kill the fish, if followed. Or am I seeing something differently than you intended?

I like Beth's suggestion: a well placed link to the 'How to ship live fish' page, maybe THAT should be the 'pop-up'? I just don't see how setting strict guidelines for shipping fish would work here. Because there is more than one way to ship a fish correctly, contrary to your statement otherwise.
I fully realize that there are more than one way to skin a cat, but not so with shipping fish
Smiles, marli

KC
03-01-2008, 09:35 AM
Define "adequate", define "enough air" or "enough water" define "minimal", heck, define "fish".... It cannot be subjective but objective and that is impossible. Nothing wrong with shipping fish different ways as long as they are ways that get the fish to the buyer alive and well. It can be a gatorade bottle, a breather bag (no air), a fish bag. Styrofoam lined box, molded styrofoam, etc. Next there would be a demand for shipping one day air only, or airport to airport which would be cost prohibitive to many.

I for one am tired of having my rights and choices taken away. Its happening every day with the animal rights nutjobs and every "rule" about animals furthers their cause. Bad idea if you want to OWN and KEEP any animal in the future.

KC

lotsoffish
03-01-2008, 10:02 AM
I don't even think the way we ship fish is "the best way".

Having "minimum implied terms of service" means we know the best way to ship and want folks to ship that way. Well I am very displeased with simply using heat packs to control temperatures. The problem with using heat packs is very easy to see. There is no thermostat so you are still at the mercy of what temperatures the box is exposed to externally.

Somehow one of us has to come up with a way of eliminating outside temperature as an influence. If I had a buck for every hour I have thought about a way of doing that I would be a very rich man right now. I think by imposing "minimum implied terms of service" standards we would be impeding on folks who want to experiment with new techniques that will eventually make our way of shipping look primitive.

doctorgori
03-01-2008, 05:48 PM
Define "adequate", define "enough air" or "enough water" define "minimal", heck, define "fish".... It cannot be subjective but objective and that is impossible. Nothing wrong with shipping fish different ways as long as they are ways that get the fish to the buyer alive and well. It can be a gatorade bottle, a breather bag (no air), a fish bag. Styrofoam lined box, molded styrofoam, etc. Next there would be a demand for shipping one day air only, or airport to airport which would be cost prohibitive to many.

I for one am tired of having my rights and choices taken away. Its happening every day with the animal rights nutjobs and every "rule" about animals furthers their cause. Bad idea if you want to OWN and KEEP any animal in the future.

KC
shoot, I'm not on any political conspiracy thing bro, it's just a suggestion to somewhat educate folks along a standard...I say so what if you use a "alternate method", if the fish arrives alive, only a anal retentive moron would complain...setting standards isn't enslavery ma'man, but I can see if you think the restriction outweighs the few morons who don't know how to bag fish, then I can dig it...


doctorgori wrote:
besides, whos' forcing?

Well, you would be, if this is in place:
Marli, I'm not exactly seeing the "smiles" on that reply...it's only a suggestion (and perhaps not a fully thought out one at that) , but definetly not a mandate from me; "Der Furer" :cop:...
...still, I did want to know what ya'll thought, and I actually appreciate the thoughts...

...anyway, if not a "standard" shipping thing, perhaps there is someway to explore the "education" angle..a sticky perhaps? I dunno...

marli
03-01-2008, 06:00 PM
Marli, I'm not exactly seeing the "smiles" on that reply...
You have no idea how many times I wrote and deleted and rewrote my response, purely because you can't READ tone. How I wish you could; you'd understand that I wasn't trying to be nasty (in fact, I almost left that part in when I deleted stuff...yes, I wrote that!), or anything like that. I was only trying to get my thoughts across as concisely as I could.

I do like the 'education' angle of it. I think Goober had a good post regarding shipping fish, but I don't know if it became a sticky. I think it could be one, and folks could add their own experiences as well. I know when I shipped my cookie fish I took a little of this and a little of that to send them on their way. I learn from everyone I get fish from and folks that I don't. So you are right, a sticky may be the way to go.

Smiles, (really!!) marli

doctorgori
03-01-2008, 06:20 PM
Marli, I'm not exactly seeing the "smiles" on that reply...
You have no idea how many times I wrote and deleted and rewrote my response, purely because you can't READ tone. How I wish you could; you'd understand that I wasn't trying to be nasty (in fact, I almost left that part in when I deleted stuff...yes, I wrote that!), or anything like that. I was only trying to get my thoughts across as concisely as I could.

I do like the 'education' angle of it. I think Goober had a good post regarding shipping fish, but I don't know if it became a sticky. I think it could be one, and folks could add their own experiences as well. I know when I shipped my cookie fish I took a little of this and a little of that to send them on their way. I learn from everyone I get fish from and folks that I don't. So you are right, a sticky may be the way to go.

Smiles, (really!!) marli
I read that last "tone" just fine...MMMMM here is a smooch back atcha :luv:
...actually, I think I did a few pages for our clubs website on shipping fish....

http://www.ohiokillifish.net/shipping.htm
...and http://www.ohiokillifish.net/shipping_overview.htm

...the site ain't finish and could use some tweaking & content, but we are working on it...

TBS_Dave
03-01-2008, 06:39 PM
Why not just say that a seller needs to post THEIR shipping/packing methods on their just me page, that way it is the BUYERS responsibility to read and agree to the sellers shipping methods before buying. If the buyer doesn't read the just me page then the buyer can not object when the fish or whatever arrive in a method they don't like. now I know, "what about doa's" well that is still up to the seller whether they offer a garuantee. I think this way the sellers are free to experiment w/ shipping methods and puts more of a responsibility on the buyer as it should be.

-Dave

KC
03-01-2008, 06:50 PM
I sticky w/ several links to fish shipping methods would be a great idea. "Terms" I am against. Suggestions, I am for. It is the buyers responsibility to do their best to find a reputable seller...and the sellers responsibility to take care of the buyer if something happens. Many sellers make it perfectly impossible to get any compensation if things go wrong and you get dead fish, and some are stellar and stand by their fish and shipping without fail and without excuses.

KC

Mark
03-01-2008, 09:33 PM
Why not just say that a seller needs to post THEIR shipping/packing methods on their just me page, that way it is the BUYERS responsibility to read and agree to the sellers shipping methods before buying. If the buyer doesn't read the just me page then the buyer can not object when the fish or whatever arrive in a method they don't like. now I know, "what about doa's" well that is still up to the seller whether they offer a garuantee. I think this way the sellers are free to experiment w/ shipping methods and puts more of a responsibility on the buyer as it should be.

-Dave
Justme pages can be changed while an auction is running.

beth
03-01-2008, 10:02 PM
But Mark, unless you changed something, so can the original auction text if you are playing dirty. Don't know if it can still be done that way, and not text in graphics for those wondering. Mark knows what I mean.

doctorgori
03-01-2008, 11:24 PM
OK, I thought about it and I can see a Reg/Standard enforment thing getting outta hand...it would just take one idiot to complain that someone only used a 1" styrobox instead of the "standard 1.678 thick" box...or you get negged when "you used newspaper instead of packing material proper"...blah blah blah"

...but doggonit, who amongst us with more than 50 "buys" hasn't recieved 20 fish packed in a single leaky bag? ...hey heck the ole feedback forums is full of "idiotic eyewittness testimony", just thinking of someway to prempt the BS...

...Now personally, I'm no geniuous, or expert packer, but I sure as hell am a good & shameless "copycat" and after recieving some fish arriving in tiptop shape, I copied what worked,,,you would think by now a few folks would catch on

I guess shoddy packing is one of my pet peaves...ignorance, laziness, fraud and outright treachery seem to rear it's head in the killifish egg section from time to time...it's real easy there to misrepresent a fish or stuff an envelope full of peat w/o a timley "neg" (because zero-poor hatching results can be delayed by months)...as I look there now, one of the "mass production breeders" could grab a few hundred bucks, and a string of positives before the crowd catches on to their act

Anyway, the AKA has a "code of conduct" as a buyer protection thing for it's members...guess I was thinking along those lines here (then again, if the pot could call the kettle blcak, I generally won't sell on thier venues due to THEIR restrictions)

Mark
03-02-2008, 05:18 AM
...but doggonit, who amongst us with more than 50 "buys" hasn't recieved 20 fish packed in a single leaky bag? ...hey heck the ole feedback forums is full of "idiotic eyewittness testimony", just thinking of someway to prempt the BS...
So did you always give those sellers positive feedback?

doctorgori
03-02-2008, 11:21 AM
Nope, I had a few "bad" transactions that I let slide because I get so little feedback, and did not want to afford the retaliatory neg...also unfortunatley, most bad transactions have occured outside of AB

Sit
03-02-2008, 03:51 PM
I use the jusy me page for my shipping process and guarantee etc... I ask prospective buyers to take a minute and read it. No idea if it ia ever read, no one has every let me know they have looked it over, but folks seem to be happy with their shipments. I'm sure there is more I could say in the just me page, but I think I pretty well cover my process and if they have questions, they can e-mail me. As far as changing something while an auction is running.... that's weak crap. Wouldn't do business with someone like that and damn sure wouldn't do it to someone. What else can we come up with to "mandate"...? Every time I go to a pub or resturaunt I ask for an ash tray just to have them go through their disertation for why they can't give me one.

Mark
03-02-2008, 10:29 PM
So why not post it in your auction itself?

RMC
03-04-2008, 06:48 AM
But I like shipping fish in Fuji film containers. :lol: :king: